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Podcast interview transscript:

Mike Spiers: Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Thomas Gelmi. Thomas is an author, speaker, and expert in personal development focusing on interpersonal relationships and human leadership, which is what we're going to focus on a lot today. He's also the author of a book called Breakthrough and the co-author of a book called The Coaching Code, and he's a member of the Forbes Council on Coaching. Today's topic will revolve around the human element of leadership and interpersonal relationships. But as you know, regular listeners, we could go on a tangent and cover other territories as well. So without any further ado, Thomas, please say hello to the audience. I'd love for you to give us a flavor of your very rich background and what led you to be with us today.

Thomas Gelmi: Thank you so much for having me on your show. Hello to all the listeners, wherever you are. I’d be happy to briefly introduce myself and give you an overview of my biography, which is actually quite a colorful one. I've been in the domain of learning and development for over 20 years now, working with managers across industries and cultures at various levels in organizations. Before I embarked on this part of my journey, I did a few completely different things. So right before this, I spent almost ten years with Swissair, which was the former Swiss national airline, and I used to lead cabin crews on international flights. I started off as a flight attendant in my mid-twenties and then moved up into a leading position there, and that was an amazing time. Of course, I saw a lot of the world, went to places I would have never gone to otherwise, and I learned a lot about human beings and interaction between them. Imagine, in a narrow tube at a few thousand meters altitude, you've got to solve issues on the spot; you cannot escalate. You have to resolve them while maintaining the relationship. I still benefit from these experiences, even now when I do executive coaching, for example. And I’d be happy to talk more about that if you like. Before that, I did a bit of job hopping. I didn't really know what to do with my life, and professionally I had so many interests, so it was difficult. The very first money I earned was by cutting people's hair. I did a three-year apprenticeship as a hairstylist, and then I joined the circus after that. So that was also part of my biography, as I said, colorful. But looking back, I see the red thread. Now I can clearly see it because even while I was cutting people's hair, I was already having deep conversations with them and listening to them. So that's where it all began. Right. To close the circle here.

Mike Spiers: All right. Very good. Now that I learned something new there, for sure. Even though I did my research, I had no idea about the hairdressing or the circus. I have to tell you, Thomas, if I was your client, you would have gone broke on the hairdressing. But I do love a good circus act. I did want to dig into a little bit around the Swissair. So you were what? In English, we would call a chief purser there. I would love to know more about what you learned about the human condition and what you learned about leadership during your time as a chief purser.

Thomas Gelmi: Mhm. So, on the human condition, of course, there are vast amounts of things that I’ve learned. One of the main things is probably the realization that, at the end of the day, everybody carries their history, their backpack of problems and issues, which we don't necessarily see. We just see the facade. We see the person from the outside. We don’t necessarily see what’s happening inside, what’s happening in their private lives. Um, and that’s one thing. And the other thing is that everybody acts most of the time in their best intentions. Mm. And, based on their needs and based on their values and what they believe in. So even if we experience a quote unquote inappropriate behavior by someone where we think, how can somebody do something like that or speak like that or whatever, if we keep in mind that they may have things going on inside them that we have no idea about, that drive them to the point where they currently are. And if we keep in mind that most likely the person is acting in their best intention. Or in other words, standing up for their needs to be met and what they believe is important or right. If we have this in mind, we may not feel threatened by this behavior or even attacked or irritated, but we may be able to respond to it with curiosity Like, oh, that’s. Oh, what makes you say that? Oh, I can see that. You’re very angry. What do you what would you need the most right now? What can we do? You see, the point. So that I think is, is a very essential, a very fundamental realization. Um, to keep in mind.

Mike Spiers: That’s good. Thomas, I want to challenge you a bit there on something, and let’s see where this goes. Um, so first of all, fully agree. We don’t know when someone has, let’s call it an emotional outburst, whether it be in a customer service environment, a workplace environment, a family environment, when someone has an outburst that’s usually maybe out of character from what you’re used to, it’s usually based on some kind of emotion, and emotion is information, and information is telling you either about unmet need such as rewarding you for a met need, or it’s telling you about an unmet need, which is what I’m hearing from you there, Thomas, is that when that person is having that outburst in front of you, you don’t know what’s happened to them that day. You don’t know what’s happened to them that week. You don’t know about their background and experiences that have led them to this point. And it could be that they are struggling right now that one of the fundamental human needs, whether it be survival, they feel under threat, love and belonging, that they don’t feel love and belonging, whether it's a disempowerment that they don't feel that they matter at that moment. So we don't know what’s going on with them. The thing I want to challenge you on and see where we go with it is you use the term, you seem to be angry right now. I also challenge that sometimes we can misinterpret that emotion. So, so by saying, hey, you seem angry right now. That’s actually labeling it. And I’m wondering whether we could use more clean language and say, you seem to be, um, having some troubles at the moment. How what’s going on or how can I help? So stay curious instead of labeling the anger, how does that sit with you?

Thomas Gelmi: I fully agree. I fully agree with the fact that saying to someone that you seem to be angry is already putting a label on the behavior. I see it’s already giving it a value or giving it a meaning or even judging it. So yeah, I might even really say, oh, I noticed that your tone of voice has changed within the last minute. That’s very neutral. That’s then very much sticking to the actual observable behavior. And what we’re talking about is some basic rules of giving professional feedback, right, that you never judge but that you give back or feedback what you see. And then the effect it has on you or me. In that case and then a potential wish or expectation you would have for the other person. Yeah. So I fully agree with that.

Mike Spiers: Yeah, I love that, Thomas. Okay. So we’re playing it back and seeing what we’re seeing or saying what we’re seeing and then echoing a bit of how it’s impacting us or impacting the people around us and then looking to move forward and stay curious and help them with whatever it is that they’re going through. And once again, whether it’s customer service or leadership. I also loved Thomas, what you said about intention. Right. So this is a common saying that’s come up on the podcast so far, and I’m going to go to the workplace now rather than just the customer service environment that a lot of people that listen to this show, Thomas, have had a horrible boss at some point, but I’ll put it to you that people don’t show up with the intent to be a horrible boss. It’s usually a lack of self-awareness, or sometimes they think they’re doing a great job. I think they’re a great boss, and they’ve got no self-awareness of the impact they’re having on those around you. Tell us more about these well-intended intended or these good intentions that people come with.

Thomas Gelmi: Oh yeah. Spot on. I would confirm or echo that most people in a leading position, just as other human beings, act in their best intention, doing whatever they think is right and effective. Now here comes the challenge. The higher up somebody's already got in the organization, the more the more responsibility. Also, the more power somebody has been given, the more likely it's going to be that the person believes that it’s because of how they do things and because of of how they show up and how their being a manager or a leader or a boss. So why change, right? Can’t be that wrong. If I became successful with all of that, and I can understand that really to some extent, yeah. Because why would you change if you’re successful? We would have to define success, but that’s another story. And so that leads to the fact that often people in leading positions are not aware enough, that they’re also that they also became successful despite some of the things they do and some of the behaviors they show that may irritate others or that may even, um, demotivate others that might, in the worst scenario, even lead to people leaving an organization. And we’re talking about blind spots here, right? So things we say or do, parts of our behavior that others do very well perceive and that have an impact on others, but we’re not aware of them? We don’t know because how can I how can I know if nobody tells me? And that’s there’s another aspect of moving up, so to speak, the career ladder in the organization. The higher up you go, the less likely it is that somebody will just give you candid feedback and tell you, you know what? You know what? It would really be good if you would stop that one thing that you keep doing in our meetings. So and so that’s the whole challenge with regards to, to, to what you said is these blind spots. It’s like the outer. The outer mirror in your car. The back mirror. Outside there’s that dead angle. Right? And if you change lanes now, you’re going to crash into another car. Everybody can see that. But you don’t.

Mike Spiers: Except you.

Thomas Gelmi: Yes, exactly. Except me. So what I do to what I often do in executive coaching or leadership coaching programs is that I start the process of with 360-degree feedback. So other stakeholders that work with that leader, with that manager, get the opportunity to give feedback in an anonymous way that is then being collected into a report. And I look at that together with the person I’m about to be coaching. And we get some very valid and valuable information. I call them the golden nuggets. You know, the things that you were not aware of that would really, really make a big, um, make a big improvement in your work effectiveness if you tackle them.

Mike Spiers: That’s great. Thomas, what I’d like to do is play back to you some of the takeaways I took from what you were just saying. So first of all, that leader, they’ve been promoted over time and they’ve gone through a few different kind of transitions in their role. And a common truth here is that what got you successful in the previous role is not necessarily the same thing that’s going to serve you well in your next role, and it can be difficult for someone to make that shift because they’ve been successful, like you said. So, well, I’ve done this. I’ve done it this way for the last 15 years. Right? So why would I stop doing it now? And then as they climb up further, the chances of someone actually pulling them aside and making shining some light onto that blind spot becomes less and less. So what I’m hearing here is, is absolutely we need to make those transitions as we go through leadership and then give people the right, psychologically safe platforms for you to hear that feedback and truly listen to it, and not to assume that everything that you’ve done up until this point has been perfect, and you’re using a 360 for that, but that psychological safe environment for people to say, hey, well, Thomas, I’ll just use you as the example. Love it when you do this, this and this and this. But are you aware that when you behave like this, this and this, everyone else kind of in the room kind of squirms in their seat and feels like they disempowered or whatever the whatever the treatment is. How does that sit with you? Thomas’s takeaways there?

Thomas Gelmi: Yeah, absolutely. So that’s very well landed with you. Obviously what I meant but there’s one thing I’d like to slightly rephrase. And that’s the very last thing that you just said. As in telling the person: are you aware that if you do this, that is usually the effect on everyone? Now, for these 360, there are various tools out there that you can use for that. The ones I use have a very strong resource orientation and solution and future orientation. So of course they solicit feedback about what people appreciate about that leader in the first set of questions. And then in the in another one. They would never ask for what is irritating, annoying or what they dislike. But instead the question is always where would you, um, where would you like to see change? Where do you see potential for development? What would you recommend this leader to do differently in the future? So you see the difference. So rather than saying what’s not okay. It’s like focusing on the desired yeah culture situation, which makes it easier for the person receiving the feedback to really embrace it and digest it and take it on board.

Mike Spiers: Yeah, I like that because it’s not criticism. It’s not being criticized. It’s talking about a future state and what they would like to see. And then they can start thinking about how they grow towards that. I’ve got one more question about being a chief purser. And then I want to lead towards your current work. The other thing I understand and please correct me if this is not right now. The thing I understand is when you’re on cabin crew or when you were even air crew. Other parts of the airline industry. Quite often you’re going to be in a team that’s almost formed on that day, like so you’re going to have some familiar faces like I’ve worked with this person before, etc. but every day it’s almost like a new team is forming. Is that is that right? And that is true. And how does a chief person deal with that? Because when we talk about high performance teams in most industries, I won’t say all industries, but in most industries, when we’re working on a high performance team, they work together day in, day out, whereas you’re you’re working with a team where a good chunk of the people are changing every day. Tell us more about that.

Thomas Gelmi: Yeah, that is absolutely true, what you’re saying. So for most flights, the crew are assembled completely, you know, from scratch. You may know some people that you’ve flown with before, others You may see for the first time. Um, the, the part where people where, where crew stay together for more than just like one day or so is when they go into continental, when they go on longer so-called rotations where they are together for maybe a few, a few, a few days in my times, which is, as I said, more than 20 years ago, we used to sometimes spend a week or even more together. But yes, what you’re saying is that whereas a normal team in a normal organization would have the opportunity to go through the classical team development phases, forming, storming, norming, performing, you may know this by Tuckman. In that situation, you would have to go from forming to performing right away. So what happens is the inflight manager or Maître de Cabine, as it was called at that time, does a debrief a briefing, a briefing with the entire crew before they board the plane. That’s about 20 minutes or max, half an hour that you have to create a team that is going to be able to perform highly in an emergency, not just in the passenger service. And, you know, the service part. Because the main reason why cabin crew are on board is not to serve meals. It’s passenger safety. And crew needs to be able to evacuate the plane in case of an emergency and do all kinds of other safety related activities. So this team has to be able to perform in an emergency. So one advantage is that typically everybody knows exactly their job. They know exactly what to do. They’ve been trained. They know the rules and regulations and everything. So you can you can assume that already. But then the two main things that need to be done in such a briefing are, number one, create maximum clarity on the expectations you have as the leader of that team towards the team. So that’s what I call the framework in which the teamwork is going to happen, and to clearly state what the team can expect from you. So what is the frame? What are the values? What are my expectations. And then based on that, because clarity gives orientation, which is another human need. You mentioned a few before. Another one is orientation gives certainty, right? I can feel safe if I know exactly what the limitations are and was. My room to maneuver is. And the second thing is to very quickly connect and build rapport, build relationship by showing that you’re a human being, by showing warmth, by showing trustworthiness, by showing empathy. Right. So there’s like the knowledge, the competence. And then there’s the empathy, the human part. Right. Yeah. And the, the latter is the one that often falls a bit by the wayside. What I see in organizations that leaders Tend to try and get credibility and acceptance by their people, by showing how smart they are, by demonstrating that their competence. Right. But worst case, people feel alienated by that or even, you know, scared off to some extent. Um, so it’s like the other way around. Create connection, authentic empathetic connection and relationship and trust first. And then on top of that, your competence, of course, is the cherry. And so these are the two things that need to be established within a very short time frame in such a cabin crew briefing. And there’s this one quote to, to close this by former US President Theodore Roosevelt. that really nails it. He said, people don't care how much you know Before they know how much you care. And that’s. Yeah. There’s nothing more to say to that.

Mike Spiers: That’s one of my favorite quotes. I absolutely love that. And it’s so true. So to to repeat that immediately. People do not care how much you know until they know how much you care. If you don’t take anything else away from today’s episode, take that one away. It’s really powerful. I heard three things there, Thomas. And this is a microcosm where it all happens in real time, very fast, in your experience or in your context here. But really, everything I heard could be also applied in the long term relationships you have in, let’s say, a conventional workspace. So there was a base level of procedure and people knowing their role. Or I’m going to extrapolate a little bit. There might even be some interdependencies where they know their role, but they also know the role of others around them. And so there’s kind of this machinations of how everything is going to go and everyone knows their role. And then what I’m hearing from you is from their clarity of expectations. So clarity of what you expect to them, clarity of what they can expect from you. And then we get into connection and with a big takeaway from you that the connection needs to be based on being human. Showing empathy and showing that you care. Yes, you need to show that you’re competent to help. But the trust is going to come from showing that you that you care for them. Has that summary stick with you, Thomas?

Thomas Gelmi: Oh, absolutely. And to complement what you just said, because all of that will create trust and a safe environment. And you say you mentioned that before. Psychological safety is one of the key drivers for high performance teams, Google data some, some research on that and published it, um, showing that the one key driver for high performance teams is not diversity or any other things. They are all important as well. But it’s psychological safety, which means that it is safe for everyone. And everybody feels that safety to speak up, to say what’s on their mind, to have a different opinion. Even if nine out of ten people in the team have one opinion and I have a different opinion, I can say it. So there’s not this groupthink bias that exists when it’s unsafe, because the person will just join the other nine people because I’m not going to say that because I’m going to be ridiculed or my idea is just going to be shut down or, or whatever. So it’s safe or it’s safe to say, hey guys, I have a problem and I don’t know what to do. I need your help, I need support, or I made a mistake, I did something wrong. And you know, you’re not going to be, you know, in front of everybody um, punished or whatever it may be or sanctioned, but but instead, the questions will be okay. John, how can we help you? Yeah. You see, as as opposed to a climate of psychological danger, which we can also see in some organizations where people already, you know, duck when the boss comes in because they don’t know who’s going to be the next person to be, to be yelled at. In worst case scenario.

Mike Spiers: I can say this is a passion of yours, Thomas. So I’m going to work up towards a question I’d love your input on and see where we go with this. So fully agree that I’ll share my own experience here and say diversity and equity is absolutely wonderful and critical, but it can become meaningless if people don’t have a voice, right? So that diversity and equity, if people don’t feel included and they don’t feel safe to speak their voice, then all of the richness of their backgrounds and their experiences are going to go out the door. And in your case, we’re talking about passenger safety. So psychological safety and the ability to stick up your hand and say, hey, I think something’s wrong, or b, I made a mistake. Oh it’s we’re talking about people’s lives at this point, right? So getting from a diversity and equity point of view, getting people a seat at the table is not enough. It’s giving them a voice. So you’re really going to hear the richness of that diverse backgrounds that they all come with. That’s really important. So I agree with you. Psychological safety has got to be top of the tree. Here’s the challenging one for you. I want to see where how we go with this one. One of the biggest challenges can be conflicting human needs here. And I can tell that you are very passionate about human needs. I’m dying to know your view about this. So psychological safety can fight against that need to feel like they belong. So when they’re in a situation or group situation, you mentioned before nine people and eight people haven’t said anything. So now I’m not going to say anything. How what advice can you give to people where they can establish psychological safety, where people can stick up their hand and say, hey, I’m not sure about this in a way that doesn’t make them feel like they’re going to be the one that doesn’t fit in, the one that doesn’t belong. Any thoughts?

Thomas Gelmi: Oh yeah. And the first thing that pops up in my mind is by showing them that it’s safe, by demonstrating that it’s safe because you see you can tell people we’re having a safe environment and everybody can say what’s on their mind and it’s safe, blah, blah, blah. And then somebody comes to the boss's office with a mistake and says, hey, boss, I made a mistake. And then the first, the immediate reaction of the boss is to roll their eyes. Oh, and then they say, okay, yeah, but you know, we have a we have a just culture here and it’s an opportunity to learn. So let’s look at it. Let’s talk it through. But the damage is already happened because it was this first non-verbal reaction that tells the truth that will tell the person. it’s not safe, right? So it’s in these the culture of an organization and the climate within a team lies in the micro moments and the micro experiences that people make with each other. Regardless of what is officially declared, you can declare that respect is a value. And it sounds great. But if in the everyday, moment by moment interactions, people don't perceive that respect, they perceive something different. Well then that's the culture and that's the truth. So in other words, the leader of a team or of a of a department or of an organization has a huge influence on others by their moment by moment behavior. That's why. That's why I keep saying that leadership development, more than anything else, is personality development. Because who you are as a person, when in a leading position, will shed its light on everything you do, influences everything. So it comes from the inside. Because if you want to be authentic, it has to be. It has to come from the inside. People will notice if you just if you're not walking the talk, if you're just pretending and it looks differently behind the mask. Right? So make people experience on a on a moment by moment basis that it is actually safe, um, to speak up and to admit mistakes, maybe even by admitting your own mistakes, you know, as a leader, as a manager. Because if you just imagine, let’s imagine two scenarios. First, scenario leader made a mistake. Wrong decision, but believes that a leader is not allowed to make mistakes and has to have all the answers and has to be the smartest person in the room, etc. so we’ll try to hide the mistake, cover up and pretend everything’s under control, right? And people will notice. So what happens to trust a trust, credibility and acceptance of that person by the team down the drain.

Mike Spiers: And it becomes a learned behavior. Then they'll start to mimic it themselves. So they'll lose trust of the leader, and then they'll start learning that behavior themselves. Oh, that must be how I get on around here, right?

Thomas Gelmi: Exactly. It spreads like a virus within the organization very quickly. So let's look at the other scenario. Suppose the leader made a mistake and wants to create or has already established this this safe environment, psychologically safe environment stands in front of the team and says, guys, we have a situation. I made a mistake. I obviously made the wrong decision. Now we need to find a solution for that. Would you help me out here? And I need you to to resolve this issue. Same thing. But this time the person is authentically admitting saying as it is showing vulnerability, which is a crucial part of authenticity. Now guess what happens. Guess what happens with credibility, trust, and acceptance of this person as their leader up through the roof? Because people know, okay, if something happens. If there is an issue. This person will be transparent and they will tell me so I can trust, even if from a from a different standpoint. Some people might say this admitting a mistake can be seen as a weakness. It is not. It is clearly not. So that will be my answer to that.

Mike Spiers: Absolutely wonderful answer. And I had a feeling that we're going to get a nugget of gold out of that question from, from you so that it didn't disappoint whatsoever. The two biggest takeaways that I took from that was about role modeling the behavior. So being able to admit a mistake yourself. And the second one was the micro moment. So how you respond in that micro moment speaks volumes of whether psychological safety is just something that's written on the wall as one of the values of the team, or whether it's a lived value. Right. So that that instant response when someone comes to you and say, hey, boss, I did make a mistake. That moment is critical and if you celebrate and reward it, then others are going to see that and they’re going to go, oh yeah, it is safe around here. But if any behavior that contradicts whether it's in body language or there's any level of incongruence in the language that you use when you respond, people pick up on that. They're very astute. They pick up on that. All right, Thomas, this has been a wonderful interview already. We haven’t gotten to the meat yet. So I want to know then how does a chief purser in the airline industry decide? You know what? I’m going to dedicate my life to? Learning and development, to executive coaching, to interpersonal relationships. Was there a moment in time that you found a purpose, or a shift of where you needed to focus the rest of your days?

Thomas Gelmi: I wish it would have been such a moment of clarity and an epiphany and a decision. It wasn’t. What happened was that in 2001, the airline I was working for grounded shortly after 911 Swissair ran out of money and the whole fleet grounded. That was the end. And then there was a new. The current airline is called Swiss. So without the air, only Swiss was created out of the ashes of Swiss Air and Crosshair, which was a regional airline here. And I was offered to stay and to transition into the new organization and even keep my job. Um, but I said no, it’s probably a good moment to open a new chapter, which I don’t even know what’s going to be in there yet. So that was kind of a risk involved. But, um. Swissair at that time opened an online job portal. At that time, it was that was very revolutionary. And the organizations, the companies in Switzerland, they all knew that some people are going to be released into the job market so they could post their, um, their open positions. And I applied with the with a small consulting company in Switzerland in, in Zurich, specializing on leadership development in sales. They were looking for a trainer, leadership trainer who could give seminars that was still popular at that time, right, to give seminars. And so I applied. I thought, no, I can do that. I applied and I got the answer from them saying. Hmm, nice try. But you know what? Come over. We want to get to know you anyway. And so I was invited for a job interview. And then I ended up, long story short, as the assistant to the CEO. For the next eight years, I stayed there. And during that time, I made a lot of I did a lot of further education and training for myself. Um, coaching, training? Um, I did a diploma as a leadership expert. It’s a Swiss federal diploma. I did a management diploma in general management, etc., etc. and I got into this kind of work, into this industry, so to speak. And then after eight years with that company, I was laid off because the company didn’t go so well anymore. And so I had to either look for a new job Or start my own business. And this wasn’t a decision I made either, at least not right away. What I did was I applied for jobs, and I started talking to people at the same time, and I got red lights for all my applications, and I got green lights and doors opening on, on, on the other, on the other side with people, um, offering opportunities for me to, you know, taking over some trainings from a colleague and doing some outplacement consulting on a mandate basis for a German company and increase the number of hours I was doing as a tutor in a, in a business school, private business school here in Zurich. And with all of that. Bits and pieces fell into place. That got me saying, okay if not now, then when. So I started my own business, and that was 13 years ago. And ever since I started, it’s flying. It’s flying very well.

Mike Spiers: So there are a few takeaways I’m taking there, Thomas, and I’d love to reflect them to you and see what your thoughts are. So the first one is that you can reinvent yourself. So anyone out there that’s feeling like and this is not the case with Thomas, by the way, but anyone that’s out there that’s feeling that they’re in the wrong job, you there are pathways where you can reinvent yourself. And yes, you might need to take a different job to learn a new craft. You might have to go and re-educate yourself, but there are ways of reinventing yourself. The other thing I took there, Thomas, is I’m going to call it a creator mindset versus a victim mindset. So it would have been very easy for you to just play victim and go, woe is me and financial crisis this and 911 that and just said that, you know, just blame the world and shut down. But what I’m hearing is that you kind of kept an open mind, and you followed paths where they opened and you created your own destiny. How does that sit with you?

Thomas Gelmi: Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, I tend to often say, yeah, I was lucky. I was really lucky in my life. And then, ever so often people would tell me, yeah, but you did something. You always did something with it. And yes, that’s true. And there’s this other quote that pops up in my mind, I don’t even know the source who said it, and I really like it. It goes something like this: Things turn out the best for those who make the best out of how things turn out.

Mike Spiers: Oh nice. I don’t know the author of that quote either. It’s beautiful. So if you want things to turn out well, make the best Of how things turn out. That’s the recipe.

Thomas Gelmi: That’s the recipe. Because, you know, we can’t really control what we are being served by life in general or by daily business in the work environment. We can’t control that things happen. Love it. Right? Right. Where we do have where we do have choices though is how we respond to that, to what’s happening. We have plenty of choices. And once I realize this, that some things I cannot change or control, fine. They are what they are. But how I respond to it, the meaning I give to it. So the stories I’m telling myself about what’s happening, I can change. And by doing that, I change my entire reality. Right? It’s called reframing in psychology, but it’s the ancient Greeks already knew it that were not that were not, you know, irritated or disturbed by the things that happen, but by the meaning we give to things. And that’s a big one.

Mike Spiers: Yeah. So there’s three, three key things I’m taking away. Thomas, I’ve got a new quote that’s going to be added to my list of favorite quotes in the world. That was amazing. the reframing of your circumstances and to do what you can from where you are with what you have instead of just giving up, that’s what a creative mindsets about. Right? So really powerful I want to I want to get to your current work and, and the word human just comes up time and time again. So you so you’re now in an executive coach. You focus on interpersonal development. But there was something that really struck me on your website. And I’d love to unpack that if, if we can please. And it was to think human act human, be human. What does that mean to you and why is it important?

Thomas Gelmi: We might say: Well, but that’s all common sense, right? I mean, we are human beings, right? 100% of clients and employees of any organization are people. So human beings. And so why do we have to, like, think human, act human, Be human? Why does anybody have to tell us to do so? Because it’s all common sense, right? We can’t act other than humanly, right? Well, that is true. And much of my work is, if you look at it very closely, really common sense. You go like, of course I have to listen to someone with the intention to understand when they’re talking to me. Of course. When we talk about it, it’s very logical. It’s very clear. However, and there comes the big “But”: in everyday business, in organizations, in the work environment, people are under so much pressure that these human aspects like listening or showing appreciation and trusting etc., and showing respect fall by the wayside because there’s so much pressure and managers, leaders, they are being measured by these so-called KPIs. Right. The key performance indicators and it's numbers. It's numbers in the end, it has to do with productivity and profitability. And because there's so much pressure in the system. They focus on the numbers and they focus on that pressure. Or they give they forward this pressure into the organization. They cascade it into the organization, often unfiltered. And so people are also under pressure. And that’s why this common sense can often not be observed. So I don’t know if that makes sense as an explanation.

Mike Spiers: No, it’s really good, Thomas. The things I’m going to reflect on there: So common sense is not common practice. That’s the first thing. And common sense. Yeah, we have those conversations all the time. We go, yeah, it’s obvious. But then be honest with yourself. Put yourself in front of the mirror. Do you do it? Do you do it every day? Do you do it consistently? And then add the pressure cooker that Thomas is talking about, where they’ve got either a board or a CEO, or an executive leadership team coming down and saying, how are we going with our numbers this week? It becomes an obsession to do the most they can individually, and it's easy to then forget that your job as a leader is actually to create the environment where your team can do their very best work, and that is the forced multiplication. All leaders are only ever given 24 hours a day on us, right? So there's only so much that I can do before I just keel over and kill myself with exhaustion. But if I’m spending the time to treat my team like they’re human, to give them the environment where they can flourish, then they will do the work. That and if I if I was narcissistic, I would then add that makes me look good. But I actually don’t care about that. I care, I care more about the impact. But that’s the thing is we get we get kind of really focused on the, on the trees instead of the forest and thinking about what we can actually do collectively. Because always what we can do collectively is much more than what any individual superhero in the business can ever do. I think that’s where people lose their way. Yeah.

Thomas Gelmi: So true. And I’m thinking of a of a final statement that one of my former clients made in a final wrap up workshop, I did a 12 months leadership coaching program in the automotive industry together with a dear colleague. And we had like 11, 12 leaders that went to the through this program. And in this final workshop, we collected the main takeaways, the main insights gained from the program. And this guy said the most important thing I understood through this program was that you can improve the financial figures of an organization by focusing on the people, not on the financial figures all the time. So and I was like, oh, I have I am having goosebumps now that I’m talking, you know.

Mike Spiers: That’s just the heart of it. Nailed it. And now I want to add one more thing, Thomas, and get your reflection on this as well, which is then the negative of what then happens when you don’t do it right. So when you’re not thinking human acting, human being human, what happens to your workforce? They disengage because they’re not being treated like they’re a human being anymore. And this is where we end up with great resignations, with quiet quitting, where people just take a step back and they start doing the bare minimum to get their paycheck, instead of truly believing that they matter and believing that their work has some kind of meaning and impact. Right. So the inverse of when you’re not human is that’s a pretty steep curve heading towards, you know, extinction. I’m going to say as a business. Any thoughts on that?

Thomas Gelmi: Oh, I couldn’t have said it any better, really. People will just do the bare minimum, as you said. That won’t get them into trouble. But don’t expect any extra miles or a special, you know, engaged, um, action or behavior. No, this will happen outside the workplace. Yeah. And that’s what that happens. People in their private lives. They flourish. They thrive. They, you know dismantle old cars and rebuild them and do things like that. And that’s where the fire and the passion goes. Imagine we could bring that passion to the workplace. But if we don’t give people the opportunity to thrive, to flourish like flowers in the organization. They will do it elsewhere. Of course, logically.

Mike Spiers: Logically and something that you’ve said multiple times already, Thomas, you’ve said about being the smartest in the room, these are these are some of the opportunities for the leader to hold space, to step back and hold space for others to have their voice to do the work. So one of the things I always say about leaders that do too much, Thomas, is every time you’re physically doing something like your fingers are on the keyboard, your hand is on the pen, or you’re the one standing up in front of a stage and giving a presentation at a conference. You’re actually robbing someone else of an opportunity to do it, to learn it, to grow. And that’s the opportunities that they’re thriving. Yes, of course they want to get good pay, though, you know, all of those conditions are almost a given. But what they really want is to feel like they matter, to have opportunities to grow and to have opportunities to learn. How do you how do you reflect on that?

Thomas Gelmi: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I often use a metaphor to describe what the main task of a leader is, and it's the metaphor of the gardener. So the leader is a gardener. So imagine you’re a gardener and you have this team to lead or the organization to lead, and that’s your garden. And the idea or the goal is to bring this garden to maximum beautiful flourishing.

Mike Spiers: Sounds good.

Thomas Gelmi: Yes. And now you have a certain biodiversity in this garden, meaning that not every plant will need the right circumstances, or the same circumstances and environment so that it can that they can flourish. Right. So each plant is different, but they all have one thing in common. The only thing they need to flourish and to bring out the best in in them is the right conditions. That’s it. And it’s the same with people. If you put people in the right environment, they will flourish. They will bring out their potential. They will become who they can become. There’s not really much you need to add to that. You may add you may have to add some training. You may have to add some support every now and then to the extent that they need it. Let’s call it fertilizer, right? They need the right temperature as in warmth and appreciation and human connection. They need the right soil, which would be the corporate culture. Right? And then just let them. So the prerequisite for that, of course, is that, you know, your plants, you know. Is this a rosebush or is it a is it a is the pine tree? This is you need to know the difference so that you can then give them what they need to thrive. And um, what I see is that many organizations, many managers and organizations, they just focus on cutting the weeds, as in solving problems. Right. That’s that’s that is important. Of course, you got to cut the weeds and remove them and solve the problems. Of course, but that’s maybe not enough, right? Just focus on that. You know.

Mike Spiers: That’s a super powerful metaphor, Thomas. I absolutely love it. And there are some of those basic conditions that you spoke about. So you’re going to need a culture, you’re going to need some elements of structure and all of these things. But then the underlying message that I’m hearing there is about adaptive leadership, and there are going to be some plants that need to be watered every day, and others who will find being watered every day very annoying, and they might wither up. Right. So, so being able to take the time to understand your team and understand their needs. And you said it before when you said the chief personnel level about what are your expectations of me. It’s not just what are my expectations of you? What are what are your expectations of me? And you can then adapt as needed to your roses versus your cacti versus your daffodils. I’m a terrible gardener, so I’m probably the worst person to extrapolate this metaphor. But I understand that different plants have different needs and different team members have different things. Yeah. Really?

Thomas Gelmi: Which puts you as a leader, in a service position. In a service role, you’re serving the team so that they can perform. That’s your role. Right. And I even go as far as saying or as recommending to leaders to ask the people, how do you need me to lead you so that you can bring out your best, right. And you may find yourselves very quickly and come to an agreement. Or you may disagree. Maybe the person you’re asking this question to will tell you know just leave me alone. Just let me do my work. Maybe we can have a call once a month, and then that’s fine. And maybe you disagree. Maybe you think we’re not at that point yet. But you know what? Let’s agree on maybe a first step into that direction. I see your wish. I see that you would like to work like that. Let’s agree on maybe a transition period of 2 or 3 months where if we give you a bit more responsibility, a bit more room to maneuver, right. And then let’s talk again and take it from there. So it’s a work in progress actually.

Mike Spiers: Yeah. The power player is the communication. It’s dynamic. And you’re listening to each other. You’re both expressing your needs and expectations and you’re and you’re truly listening to each other. Absolutely love this conversation, Thomas. And you’re going to draw us to a close now. So we’ve heard so many great things for me, from your experience all the way back to leading teams of cabin crew through to your transition to learning and development. And this focus on thinking, human acting, human being human for it to drive that authenticity, to build that trust, to build human connectedness. Because when you treat people like the human. They will then do amazing things and they’ll. They’ll usually exceed your expectations, is my experience. This has been a wonderful conversation. So I’d like to take us now to our rapid round. And our rapid round is the same four questions that we ask all of our guests. So what’s the one thing that you know now, Thomas, tell me that you wish you knew when you were 20.

Thomas Gelmi: That everything will turn out well. And for the best. The only thing you need to know. The only thing you got to do is make the best of the things that happen, right. Don’t be discouraged by what’s happening.

Mike Spiers: Very nice. What’s your favorite book?

Thomas Gelmi: It’s The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle.

Mike Spiers: All right. That has come up a few times on the show, by the way. And what’s your favorite quote?

Thomas Gelmi: My favorite quote was probably the one I just mentioned. The one you know where. I don’t know really what the source is, but that things turn out the best for those who make the best out of how things turn out.

Mike Spiers: I’m going to dig that out. I’m going to try and find out who the source of.

Thomas Gelmi: Let me know what you find.

Mike Spiers: It’s in my top five or top ten now as well. Absolutely brilliant. And finally Thomas.Gelmi, there's going to be people that are very curious about what they’ve heard today. I’m sure that they’ve learnt a lot. How do people get in contact with you if they’d like to know more or they’d like to take advantage of your company services?

Thomas Gelmi: For example, through LinkedIn is a very good way to connect with me. Just send me a connection request or through my website is Gelmi Dot coach or you can also use Thomas Gelmi com either way if you just, you know, do a Google search on my name, you will find me. There’s not many people in the world with my name, so that’s made me makes me already stand out, which is an advantage.

Mike Spiers: All right Thomas, we will put those links in the show notes as well to make it easier for people to just click. Absolute pleasure to have you on the show Thomas. I’ve learned a lot. I know the audience did as well. Thoroughly enjoyed our conversation and thank you so much for your time today.

Thomas Gelmi: Thank you so much for having me on the show. It was a big pleasure for me too.