Podcast interview transscript:
Mark Septhon: Welcome to the next episode of the Brains Magazine podcast. Today, we are with Thomas Gelmi.
Thomas, I must pronounce your name correctly since you said it's Italian, right?
Thomas Gelmi: Yes, it is. Many people say Gelmi, and that's fine, but it is pronounced like «gelato» in Italian.
Mark Septhon: Yeah, I like that. So, Thomas Gelmi is the owner and MD of GELMI Interpersonal Development. Thomas, you're also an executive coach, author, and speaker. And I find that as we progress through life, we tend to add these extra layers and expressions of what we do. Do you plan to add some more to that?
Thomas Gelmi: No, not really. Not necessarily because the list may get longer and longer. And I think it's not so important WHAT we are, what hats we wear, and what roles we're in, but WHO we are.
Mark Septhon: Yeah. People always say, "Mark, you do so many things. You wear so many hats." And I say, "Yes, but it's the same head, which is the key, isn't it?"
Thomas Gelmi: Yeah, absolutely. I like it!
Mark Septhon: So we're going to dive straight in over the next 30 minutes because I, I always think, you know, it's my responsibility to get inside your head and tap into all that experience that you've had over two decades and be able to draw it out of you in a way that's going to benefit everybody that's listening to this podcast, and that we can apply 1 or 2 things to our life. You know, we live in. We live in an information overload, don't we? And for me, I always talk about how we need more revelation and not more knowledge. What are your thoughts on this? You know, when we hear a podcast about taking what we hear and applying it.
Thomas Gelmi: Well, I fully agree with what you just said. Information overload is massive, right? I keep seeing that effective people, whether leaders or others, are usually very selective with how they consume, take in, and process information. And the information itself is not worth a lot if we don't interpret it, give meaning to it, or put it into context. And that's, in my opinion, much more important, you know, than knowing a lot. Knowing how one thing does now is what really counts. What do you do with all that information and the knowledge you have? and that is at the heart of my work, right? Supporting people in shifting from know-how to do-how? Because most people I work with theoretically know what to do or how to do it, or what they should be changing. The crucial step where many fail is to put it into practice and then keep going and create new habits.
Mark Septhon: I love that. That's kind of a nice little saying. I think you should run with that, Thomas. Make it a blog or an article out of that. From know how to do how. It's quite good, isn't it? I like what you said about interpreting and giving meaning to something. You know, for me, that is essential. You know, you have to take what you know and then apply it, give it an identity, give it a heartbeat, give it legs, let it breathe, nurture it, and see it manifest in your life like that. Yeah.
Thomas Gelmi: It is it. Maybe you saw my website. There's a claim, it's very simple. Think human, act human, be human. you know, it all comes down to incorporating what you believe in and what you stand for, and then being an example for others, with all that being a role model, inviting others to play along. You know, for example, the more authentic you are, the more genuine you show up, and the more you invite others to do the same. There's resonance, which is a very strong principle.
Mark Septhon: Before we jumped online, we were talking about our ability to wake up from naps even before we set an alarm. You talked about how our unconscious can create that ability. Now, some unconscious things don't serve us. So, how do we take our unconscious values and make them more conscious? How can we be more reliant and more aware of the values that we give to things?
Thomas Gelmi: Well, there are two approaches. One is a more rational cognitive approach, which would be to sit down and write down what you believe and what is important to you. some instruments I work with, for example, provide many potential values that people have. Then you select and start just marking the ones that somehow resonate with you. And so you and then you, you condense it. You come down to like 4 or 5 core values that are really important. Then, there are some profiles you can take to reveal your new value system. So that's more of a cognitive approach. And then there is a more mindfulness-based approach, which basically means paying attention, being present, and paying attention to your reactions and your inner reactions to what's happening. Those are pointers towards your values. When, for instance, you get triggered by something someone does or did, or you get angry or irritated in whatever way. And that's a pointer towards what is important to you. Let's say, for example, someone behaves in a somewhat inappropriate and disrespectful way in a meeting towards someone else in your eyes disrespectful, and you react. You get, oh, how can he say something like that to that person? This is so disrespectful. That's a pointer towards a value because I get triggered only because, for example, mutual respect at the workplace in meetings is a value for me. If it weren't important to me, I wouldn't. So, these are two approaches that are more cognitively rational by thinking about it and analyzing it, and the other one is more about developing mindfulness and being in a good connection with yourself and having a good awareness and consciousness.
Mark Septhon: Love that. I think you have a great ability, Thomas, to take something a little complex and make it kind of simplistic. I liked how concise and clear you were on the cognitive approach and mindfulness. I feel like that was good and valuable. So, thank you. I wanted to probe into something with you because I didn't fully understand it. So, I kind of wanted to get your take. What do you mean by sustainable personality development?
Thomas Gelmi: Okay. Good. What I mainly do in my work is work with people in leading positions, leaders, managers, people who influence organizations, and influence tasks, processes, and people more than anything, right? And I helped them grow in their roles as leaders. It's very behavioral. It's very much about the people side of a managerial position. The longer I do what I do, the more I realize and the more it reconfirms that leadership development, by the end of the day, is personality development because it all comes down to who you are as a leader. It's one of the first things we discussed. Who you are is more important than what you are. If you imagine a manager or a leader walking around the organization all day long interacting with people who they are inside, including the value system, their beliefs and needs, and personality style, they have affected everything. Influences everything. What it looks like inside you, who you are as a person, and what your current emotional state is, for example, affects everything you do.
You say how you say it, how you respond or react to what other people say or do. And so, sustainable personality development is at the heart of any change or any development. Competence in collaboration in any context, where people want to work together and achieve something together and sustainable, of course, because changing my ways of interacting with other people is not a light switch. I cannot just push a button and say, okay, up to here, I did this. As of tomorrow, I will do that, and I will consistently keep doing it. That's not how it works because we're talking about a change of habit, habitual thinking, and habitual behavior in adult people. Right. So, it's a process consisting of baby steps, small changes here and there, and observing. Does it work? Oh yes, it does. So, I can do more of that. I can be bolder and more courageous. Show more. Show up more authentically, for example. Over time, new habitual thinking and behaving will happen.
Mark Septhon: We've got a lot of hungry people that listen to these podcasts. You know I'm hungry to keep moving that needle forward. And I know that you are as well, Thomas. And there's a sense that the more we know, the less we know. But how do we continue to increase our performance and resilience? You know, resilience is something that is, I think, fundamental to anybody that I've studied that's achieved anything. Their ability to overcome obstacles, pain, and difficulty is the one thing that stands out. But how do we increase that?
Thomas Gelmi: Well, there are several ways because there are several aspects to resilience. Resilience is also often referred to as the window of tolerance. How much are we able to tolerate? How elastic can we be amid adversity under pressure and not break? Right. So, we all have this window of tolerance. We all have, like any and every organism on this planet, the ability to handle pressure, to handle peaks, you know, up to a certain point. Right. We can increase our resilience through this window of tolerance. for example, by developing the various aspects of resilience. So, let me name a few. One aspect is optimism. Optimism. Meaning that even though it may seem like everything is falling apart at the moment, I still strongly believe it will end well. And we're going to come out the other end of this. It's all going to be well. That's optimism. And that's a mindset and an attitude that we can choose.
Optimism is not something that happens or doesn't or depends on what's happening. No. It's a decision I can make every morning when I get up. I will be optimistic today, no matter what happens. Will I have fewer problems and challenges throughout the day because of that? No, but I will perceive them differently and be able to handle them more confidently. Right. ET cetera. And especially if you're in a leading position, that's crucial because that's what you radiate. That's what other people sense when they observe you. And you are under observation because people take you as a reference point. Is he or she nervous about what happened, Or are they confident and keep going? Okay, then I can also be calm and become right. So optimism is one. Another one is solution focus. Instead of focusing on a problem and going deeper into the problem mentally and circling around the problem, you know that when all your thinking circles around the problem you have, you almost get into sort of a problem trance.
So, the way or the step to step outside this problem cycle is the solution. Focus by asking yourself or the team, okay, what could be the first step towards finding a solution if we don't have one yet? But what could be the first step? And consistently focusing on that. Another one. And that's one of my favorites because it caused a massive shift in me and my life. Once I realized that and fully understood it. And that's what I call radical acceptance of the unchangeable. This means that you should do as quickly as possible in any situation that bothers you, stresses you out, or weighs you down to realize which aspects of the situation or the topic you can change and influence and do something about. What aspects are what they are? You cannot do anything about them because you have no control over them. They are what they what they are. Then, you should be able to fully accept those aspects, let them go, and focus on what you have room to maneuver and where you have influence.
That puts you in the driver's seat immediately, whereas focusing on things you cannot change and being stuck in resistance against them is such a massive waste of time and energy. You see. And of course, this, yeah, this radical acceptance of what you cannot change sometimes is easier. You break your favorite coffee mug in the morning when you stand in your kitchen. Okay. That's a nice exercise to practice radical acceptance. There it is. Gone. Shattered to pieces. or you just, um. You just got laid off. You just lost your job. Kind of a different magnitude. That may take a moment to reach a point where you can accept, let go, and move forward. Right. So, these are just some aspects of resilience. I could go on, but I understand we have limited time.
Mark Septhon: You know, it's interesting. I can tell from my reflection where my biggest opportunity is with those two. It's the last one. I think people forget that they can choose to be optimistic and almost, you know, choose to be solution-focused. But radical acceptance, Thomas, is one that I struggle with because I believe there's a solution to everything. And so, when I'm butting up against something, it's typically when I'm waiting on somebody else. Yes. It's like when somebody owes you something, and then it's like, what do you do with that? But you have been able to master that. And again, like you said, it only wastes our energy. But what would be your message to people like me and others who believe that there's a solution? That's how we do it, just because it almost feels like we're rolling over.
Thomas Gelmi: Yes. So, this is very important to understand when discussing radical acceptance. This acceptance only concerns things that cannot be changed where it's clear that they cannot be changed or reversed because they have already happened. For example, and it does not mean I give up. I completely give up and don't try to find any way forward. The only thing I give up with this approach is my resistance to the fact that it happened, for example, or my attachment to the idea that it should be different when it isn't. You see what I mean? That's what we give up. Attachment and resistance. The two main things where pain and suffering come from and by understanding that I can still move and still say, okay, now what? Now, what am I going to do? And three things are always within my circle of influence. I can always control, and I always have choices there. Number one is what I focus on. Do I focus on the fact that I broke my mug? Or should I focus on how I get a new mug? Or where could I get a nice new mug that I would like just as much? So, where do I put my focus of attention? The focus of attention is like a flashlight where you direct the light, which is what you see more. What is more present, right? The second thing you can always control, and where you always have choices, is the meaning you give to the situation. The ancient Greeks already knew. It's not the situations that bother us but the stories we tell ourselves about them. And there we have a choice. We can change the story. Right? You know, when I look outside the window right now, it's raining. So many people would put a meaning on that fact that says something like oh, terrible weather. But rain is neutral in itself. There is no terrible weather in itself is neutral. Tell somebody living in a desert state that rain is bad weather. They will laugh because, for them, it's what they wish for, right?
So, what you focus on is the meaning you give to things, what you do about it, and how you respond to it. So, accept what you cannot change because it already happened or because it is what it is, and let it go. Then, focus on what you can do. Love that. Huge difference. Huge difference. And it's a matter of awareness again, too. Yeah. You can practice this every day with small things that are happening. There are plenty of things to practice.
Mark Septhon: You're a master of being able to detail real tangible ways behind everything that you say. I feel like that's a massive skill of yours, Thomas. I just really enjoyed the way that you are breaking some of this. This is, for me, one of the most meaningful and helpful podcasts we've had because of the depth that you're sharing, which I love. So, kudos to you for that. One of the articles you wrote for brains was about human factors. I just wanted to touch on this. What? What do you mean by human factors? Like what? What is that really about? Is that just the fact that we have limitations?
Thomas Gelmi: What I mean are the aspects in human interaction or also in, in self-competence, you know, in dealing with yourself that have to do with empathy or emotional intelligence, the ability to show compassion for both yourself and others when interacting with others. This is what I mean by human aspects in leadership and collaboration. Of course, everything we do at the end of the day is human because we are human beings, right? But in my understanding, that's the factor. I mean, and why do I so strongly promote those? Well, because even though many of these things that I promote could be seen as common sense, they are unfortunately often not so common in organizations. So, common sense doesn't equal common practice. It's the same as we've discussed before; right from know-how doesn't mean do how. So, what we often see in organizations is a lack of some of these aspects: empathy, compassion, true, genuine human connection, authenticity, caring for each other, and mutual support, et cetera. What we do see is a strong focus on what's often referred to as the hard facts, the numbers, the KPIs, key performance indicators, the financial figures, and profitability, etc., etc. and that's the reason why those human aspects often fall by the wayside, because there's such a strong pressure to achieve goals, to make the numbers, to drive things forward, that, yeah, empathy and all of that, are not considered well enough.
Mark Septhon: Now, I wanted to touch on something that may not be a common opinion—it may not even be a common thought—but it's something that I've given thought to. Why do you think some leaders struggle with leadership in their own lives, like within the professional field? Why is it that people are good at leading other people and organizations and yet lead themselves? There's a discrepancy.
Thomas Gelmi: First, we would have to define what good leadership in the organization means. If it's just being profitable with the organization, if that is already considered good leadership, I would put a big question mark behind that because this often comes at a price. You know you can be very profitable by focusing on the numbers and using people as instruments to achieve your goals without caring about them. This will come at a price. One of the prices is having quiet quitters and an increasing number of people who just show up and do their work but do not engage in any way whatsoever. Or high turnover rates. Right? People coming, people going. That's often the price; if that's what you want if that's what you are willing to pay as a price, then we could say that's good leadership. Many organizations currently struggle with finding good people and binding good people. So then maybe a different approach is more useful, right? Like the one we just discussed, focusing more on the human aspects is often the game changer that makes an organization profitable without focusing on profitability all the time.
I just had a client a while ago who told me at the end of a 12-month leadership development Program, he said. Thomas, the most important thing I understood in this program. You can improve the financial figures of an organization by not focusing on the numbers but by caring about the people. And I thought, yes, he got it!
And so, to come back to your question, why are some leaders successful leaders in the company? But not so much when it comes to leading themselves or being in their families and private lives. Being. Being effective there. I guess that's my experience. Also, those leaders who do focus on being a human being in their leadership and who do pay attention and value, these human aspects usually are good human beings, you know, empathetic, emotional, intelligent human beings outside the workplace, those who successfully, quote-unquote, lead organizations without that human aspect. Yes, I agree; we often see people who are, worst case, who are wrecks, you know, personally and who have, bad relationships or bad family situations outside the workplace. Because what often happens is that someone, let's say, let's say a man, of course, can be any gender. But as an example, a man moves up the career ladder. At some point, a child is born, then a second child that often goes in parallel, right?
And with the climbing of the career ladder, what we often see is that men become even more dominant, even more, assertive because they have to, not because that's the only way of being successful as a leader, but because that's the behavior that's being rewarded and incentivized. That's how you move up the ladder. So you have to. And this they bring home into their families as well. So, they also become more dominant and assertive in their families and in dealing with their spouses and kids. Et cetera. At some point, you will become more and more successful on the career ladder. And at some point, things start breaking apart. That's what we see happening every day. So on the other side, to close the circle, what I keep seeing is that when leaders go through a coaching process, for example, and they start connecting or reconnecting to their emotions, to their softness, to their emotional intelligence, they develop that all areas of life benefit all areas of life benefit.
He said I had a client a few years ago in the US. At some point, Thomas, you know what? And then he showed me his smartphone. He said, this just saved my marriage. And I was a bit irritated because it's usually the other way around with these devices, right? Very true. And then what he said was, no, no, look, Thomas, I set myself a reminder every morning at eight ding! And it said to talk less and listen more. So he got that from our coaching program, and he set this intention for the work environment because he was a talker. Oh, my goodness. So he set himself this anchor, this reminder. Interestingly enough, his wife was the first person to notice the difference. So, it had an effect outside the workplace because things are much more connected than we believe. It's not work and life that need to be balanced. It's life with all of its aspects that need to be balanced. Yes. So, I prefer a life balance to a work-life balance. So yeah, that was kind of a big circle I just took.
Mark Septhon: Yeah, I like it. It's a great circle. Thomas, as we bring this into the land, is there anything you want to say? Get off your chest. Something that you feel is poignant that you feel people need to hear. Something that's burning within you. And let people know as well how they can find out more about you and your work.
Thomas Gelmi: Yeah. What's really a burning desire for me is for as many people as possible to understand that it is safe to be yourself and reconnect to who you are. Before you start trying to be what other people think you should be. So to reconnect to that, that the essence that's there, who you are in your essence, and to show that, to let it show and to contribute with that quality and have the courage to be true to yourself and authentic and genuine and vulnerable, because that's what creates connection and trust and invites others to open up as well. And then the magic happens, you know. And so, have the courage to maybe embark on a self-realization process, on a personality development process, on any kind of development process. Leadership development, whatever you want to call it, In the end is always the same thing: It's about growing as a person. Have the courage! It’s so worth it. And you can reach out to me for support. You can reach out to me on LinkedIn or through my website. It's www.gelmi.coach. Those are the best ways to connect with me, and I'm happy to assist.
Mark Septhon: Thomas, that was so rich and valuable. I really enjoyed this one. It was fantastic. Thank you so much for joining me on today's podcast.
Thomas Gelmi: Thank you so much for having me as your guest. It was a pleasure talking to you.